Curse

Sora267 · Jul 30, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Just in case ANet does do this (chances are slim to none), I'm calling it: They're going to add an extra 40 ranks to the Norn title track WITHOUT adjusting the required rep or the amount of current earned rep people had like they did with the Gladiator title (meaning that r10 Norns stay r10). Ursan now has "99% chance of failure under Norn rank 20" at the end of it. The bonus for r20 will be +50 health and +5 armor (half of what r0 gives you now) and r50's will be +10 armor and +100 health (what r0 gives you now, which is half of what r10 gives). ANet then proceeds to make all Mesmer hexes AoE.

D E C E P T I V E · Jul 30, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

How long have you played GW, independant thought never existed before Ursan and it wont exist after. It will just be some new specific team configuration to do certain areas.

What sense does it make anyway if they are going to Nerf one thing and buff another to make something just as powerful as Ursan in the first place.

In a month the qqing will start about whatever someone thinks is overpowered.

Gess what, Ursan takes as much skill as any other overpowred configuration that can be made. Was it hard to run a nuker and nuke mobs once they got on a tank in FoW before Ursan, was just as easy, althogh took longer. Nothing PvE in this game really requires a super skillful player.

If Ursan is nerfed it is only for one reason and will send one message, they tailor the game for the harcore winers on sites like this. Nothing forces them to use ursan. Oh well, i say all the casual gamers just quit GW if they nerf it because Anet thinks you have nothing better to do than sit in front of a computers for hours on top of hours straight to play the high end areas of the game. Let them tailor GW2 for hardcore players and see how many millions of copies they sell because the vast majority of GW is not hardcore and for every one of the hardcore idiots qqing on here about how bad ursan sucks there are probably 90+ casual gamers that like it. They know this, thats why they made ursan in the first place.

PvE is not about skill, you can never call it skill when people have been through the areas before, know exactly what is going to come at them, and have designed a build to counter it.

PvE and PuGs dont want skill, they want a group that is going to be able to suceed because sitting around for an hour trying to form a team then ultimately failing half way through whatever you are trying to do is a huge waste of time. Skill is for PvP.

Ursan is nice because its easy to form because any class can really do it, although the nerf hurt it because now they mainly want primary melee classes to run it, and it doesnt take an hour just to find all the things you need to form some other specific team configuration type of PuG, what there was before Ursan and what there will be after Ursan if they nerf it.

Nerfing Ursan will not make it easier for everyone that wants to do non ursan pugs in high end areas. There were few PuGs there before Ursan because no one wanted to waste their time because an hour into your 4-8 hour questing journey, depending on what you are clearing someone gets tired or rages about something noob that someone else did and leaves, or someone gets tired and leaves, or the group just fails. Non Ursan Pugging in those areas was scarce, was not versatile, they ran very specific team builds. They were just mainly a bunch of 2 man or 5man or whatever kind of farm teams that just went and cleared one or two areas of the zone for loot and repeated. The exception was guild and alliance groups that do the areas as non ursan, and with variation, all on vent and knowing what they are doing, that still goes on today as does non Ursan Pugging, like my guild and alliance, just as much as before ursan because it never went on alot in the first place. This variation that everyone talks about never existed in the first place.

R.Shayne · Jul 30, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by D E C E P T I V E

How long have you played GW, independant thought never existed before Ursan and it wont exist after. It will just be some new specific team configuration to do certain areas.

I have to agree, it seems most of the complainers on this site either can't remember before GW:EN or they were part of the holy trinity group that got replaced with UB. A Nerf is not going to stop pugs from requiring meta builds and the only way to fix that is a MAJOR overhaul of all professions that encourages people to bring different professions.

Once ANET nerf's UB into oblivion (look at pass examples of how they nerfing skills) the farmers will change builds, the qq whom have accomplished nothing will find something else to complain about, and the casual player will leave the game. Let's just hope the casual players don't remember that Guild Wars carters to two type of players, hardcore and pvp, because we need casual players to have a successful game and to keep the servers running.

One thing I can't figure out, if ANET had continue to ignore the hardcore community they would have risked very little. If they give into the hardcore community they are taking a greater risk.

Joe Fierce · Jul 31, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Firstly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

Yes, it is VERY do-able.
And yes, it does involve thinking.

And yes, I am very impressed you survived a run with Town..lol

lol, <3

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

I have to agree, it seems most of the complainers on this site either can't remember before GW:EN or they were part of the holy trinity group that got replaced with UB. A Nerf is not going to stop pugs from requiring meta builds and the only way to fix that is a MAJOR overhaul of all professions that encourages people to bring different professions.

Once ANET nerf's UB into oblivion (look at pass examples of how they nerfing skills) the farmers will change builds, the qq whom have accomplished nothing will find something else to complain about, and the casual player will leave the game. Let's just hope the casual players don't remember that Guild Wars carters to two type of players, hardcore and pvp, because we need casual players to have a successful game and to keep the servers running.

One thing I can't figure out, if ANET had continue to ignore the hardcore community they would have risked very little. If they give into the hardcore community they are taking a greater risk.

I tend to disagree with a minor part in your statement here, i bolded it for you sir. I complain because ursan seems to make people refuse to want to learn something new, i remember before ursan, i also remember that i didn't run the trinity build, a ranger or a para was my tank, my main dmg was from ss or spirit strengthers and the occasional CoP dude. Metas may suck for those not included in them, but they also encourage those who aren't included in them to make something better, or at least thats the way it worked for me (and my runs were at least 30-45minsfaster on average than the trinity). Ursan means that anyone can be included in the party without any thought. A meta means people gotta think a little bit to be included in the party. I'd rather have to deal with the ignorance of people who think that the meta is the only way to go, than with the people who think ursan is the grand solution... Because in the fight between ursan and real builds, it's hard to argue with getssh1tdone, in the arguement between real builds and real builds, it's easier to sway others to come over to the dark side, cause we've got cookies.

R.Shayne · Jul 31, 2008, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Fierce

A meta means people gotta think a little bit to be included in the party.

What? It means people have to have the right campaign (just like ursan), it means people have to have the right skill (just like ursan), it means people have to have the right build (just like ursan). It means people have to give up their favorite character just so they can fit into a group (dang there is a difference). The only thing in favor of Holy Trinity was it didn't take as much grind.

Thinking? Maybe in pvp but these people are running the same build over and over in the same area. The only one that might be thinking is the monk trying to determine which tank has agro.

If you think a nerf to some elite skills is going to change pug mentality then you are wrong. A rework of all professions that had player wanting to take all profession would be a better solution, no buff no nerf just how the professions work together. That would take a major undertaking and I don't think NCSoft will pay the bill.

mr_stealth · Jul 31, 2008, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

What? It means people have to have the right campaign (just like ursan), it means people have to have the right skill (just like ursan), it means people have to have the right build (just like ursan). It means people have to give up their favorite character just so they can fit into a group (dang there is a difference). The only thing in favor of Holy Trinity was it didn't take as much grind.

The thing with ursan is that it becomes your entire skill bar. The second you click that skill, your character is no longer an ele/mesmer/ranger/etc, you're an ursan. At least with even a Trinity pug, there is some flexibility/customization for builds, with the exception of the anal wiki-worshippers that must have the build. These are same people that are demanding only W/Me ursans now(IMO the reason anet is nerfing it). But, for most groups as long as your build fits the role required, it isn't a problem.

I've had my elementalist in many FoW pugs(back before ursan), and not once did I take the "required" echo and/or arcane echo that 90% of the other eles in town were using. Back when the Deep was popular(shortly after HM update), I monked quite a few pugs without using Healer's Boon, despite it being in the wiki build, and on the bars of most other monks. Sure, I ran into some clueless people that demanded an exact wiki build because they thought nothing else could ever work. Those people usually end up being the type that rudely order people around, and I would prefer to not be in their group anyway.

upier · Jul 31, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Okay? That kind of dodged my point. If it was so easy to set up a good skill bar, they wouldn't need simple "farming" skill bars.

Step 1:
Nerf.
Step 2:
WAHHHH!!!
Step 3:
Wiki/Guru Farming sub-forum/....
Step 4:
Farming continues.

People aren't playing the game for the sake of the journey - people are playing the game for the sake of rewards.
People abuse the AI/use simple techniques because that makes it harder to fail.

Getting better at PvE means learning how to abuse the AI. All you need to learn is how to counter it - since it never changes and that is why it will never surprise you so you don't need to learn anything other then the basic way how to win.

So if the player skill required is that low - I don't see major changes in store for Ursan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If you're posting out of dicussion of why such and such is imbalance in the hope that ANet will take notice, then yes we agree.

But since you've already told me that you don't believe that, then no, we can never agree.

Oooo ... kay ...

D E C E P T I V E · Jul 31, 2008, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

If you think a nerf to some elite skills is going to change pug mentality then you are wrong. A rework of all professions that had player wanting to take all profession would be a better solution, no buff no nerf just how the professions work together. That would take a major undertaking and I don't think NCSoft will pay the bill.

Actually, i think changing the design of things could go a long ways toward helping too, and I am not arguing for a nerf to Ursan because I think people should be able to use it if they want.

I think one of the major reasons PuGs go with specific groups is not always because they are doing it spefically to just get the reward, alot of people are doing to complete the quest for the sake of playing the game and completeing the quest, but they dont want to lose out on their investment of time, and ultimately end up wasting their time in a fail group. Lets face it, many areas where Ursan is commonly used require a significant amount of time to complete.

I think if they came up with a way to allow players to do the quests separately, 1 at a time instead of having to do 11 quests in one sitting alot more people would be willing to do non ursan groups because:

1) Ursan is kind of boring and lots of people like playing the game and have more fun playing the game with a mesmer for example. Something that is not a part of Ursan or most other specific groups that people have used before Ursan and will go back to after Ursan.

2) Doing the quests one at a time would not require a huge investment of time, and most people, if doing with the intent of say clearing fow, would be willing to take a chance with one quest because it wouldnt be such a waste of time if they failed. Failing 1 quest with wouldnt be that big of a deal if you could just pick up where you left off. It wouldnt be like going into FoW, completing 5 quests and failing on the 6th and having to start completely over, that is a huge waste of time. Also, no quest/dungeon should take more than and hour to complete in one sitting. Makes you wonder why Anet has that warning sign, you have been playing for an hour please take a break when so much stuff in the game is impossible to finish in an hour, and ther is no way to take a break and just pick up where you left off.

Of course, you will still have the farmers that want to do the same thing over and over again in the fastest way possible just to get the rewards and nothing will change them because they are playing the game for the rewards. But just as the majority of GW players are not hardcore, i dont think the majority of players are boring gold and rewards grinding farmers. Most of them play because they like to play, its just the huge time investment and risk involved to wasting your time if you fail. Thats one of the big reasons alot of people do Ursan and the meta trinity groups in the first place imo.

Bryant Again · Jul 31, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

People aren't playing the game for the sake of the journey - people are playing the game for the sake of rewards.
People abuse the AI/use simple techniques because that makes it harder to fail.

Getting better at PvE means learning how to abuse the AI. All you need to learn is how to counter it - since it never changes and that is why it will never surprise you so you don't need to learn anything other then the basic way how to win.

So if the player skill required is that low - I don't see major changes in store for Ursan.

Remember when I said how similar PvE was to PvP in a few key respects? This is just one of those many reasons. There's always a meta, always something that's more easy to use than the others - and therefore there's always going to be something to balance. With all that ANet has put on their plate, this job has now become a lot more harder than it sounds.

Nerfing Ursan won't solve all of GW's problems, but it's one of many. Not just one of many, either, it's easily one of the most intentionally gamebreaking ideas ever added to PvE.

All in all, though, if the player skill required was "so low" and all the player had to do was learn the "basic way to win" (which is incredibly broad in itself), we wouldn't have even seen something like Ursan - let alone PvE skills in general - in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Oooo ... kay ...

Well I kinda got that from this.

Aera Lure · Jul 31, 2008, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_stealth

The thing with ursan is that it becomes your entire skill bar. The second you click that skill, your character is no longer an ele/mesmer/ranger/etc, you're an ursan. At least with even a Trinity pug, there is some flexibility/customization for builds, with the exception of the anal wiki-worshippers that must have the build. These are same people that are demanding only W/Me ursans now(IMO the reason anet is nerfing it). But, for most groups as long as your build fits the role required, it isn't a problem.

I agree. Ursan removes classes from the game, except maybe a monk healing them. At least without Ursan, parties that utilize classes in play return. There is no way that is bad. Its a step in the direction of the spirit of the game since even a trinity group uses more variety than an Ursan group. There is some customization and flexibility (and therefore interest) even just within the trinity.

Now sure, the next step is bringing the under-utilized classes forward more, but the community is as much at fault as development and game balance. When I ran PUGs I used to run balanced PUGs and I allowed the odd assassin and welcomed the rare mesmer etc. We always did just fine, provided I kicked those that wouldnt ping builds or shouted "Go! Go! Go!" and I made wise class selections. Same in PUGs I joined. I have been in so many more successful PUGs than unsuccessful that it astonishes me when I hear people have other experiences. It simply takes a bit of patience before you enter your objective.

Development plays a role too. Finding a way to encourage the community to desire others to be involved in the sacred PUG mix would be great, so long as it didnt overpower the under-used classes.

Nuking Ursan to hell is a start. Problem is, they no longer have the resources allocated to GW to balance the game any in an attempt to accomplish the rest. Its going to come down to the community, and we know how that will go. Still, even a return the the trinity and the more creative and tolerant PUG team leads is an improvement over an Ursan-dominated game.

How Anet hasnt realized this yet has made me lose a lot of faith in them. The game used to have classes in PvE. Its such a huge oversight/allowance/betrayal of the original game concept that it gives me pause as to their ability to manage a game. They can release an excellent product, but they clearly have issues maintaining and balancing it. Something likely to raise its ugly head in GW2.

glacialphoenix · Jul 31, 2008, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aera Lure

We always did just fine, provided I kicked those that wouldnt ping builds or shouted "Go! Go! Go!" and I made wise calss selections. Same in PUGs I joined. I have been in so many more successful PUGs than unsuccessful that it astonishes me when I hear people have other experiences. It simply takes a bit of patience before you enter your objective.

When I first started - and PUGged, people were a lot more willing to spend time thinking about what they had to do. The necro, for example, wouldn't bring minions if there weren't any bodies. Yep, the occasional bad player slipped past the net, but if you asked people to ping builds, it was pretty fine -and I even enjoyed PUGging to some degree, because I got to meet new people. I mean, it's an online game, yes?

Ursan changed that. I've been in a lot more unsuccessful teams since Ursan turned up, and I think it's because the skill encourages the mob mentality. You don't have to think things through that much if you're an ursan, and hey, y'know, it's got +200 hp and +20 armor... (assuming you're r10, of course, which most ursans these days are anyway) so people want things faster. They mob things, fairly often without pulling - and quite a few act like the backline isn't there - you can have a monk getting hit by 3-4 mobs because the wall failed - and NOBODY notices until they die. Even if the monk is pinging for help.

To be entirely fair, I've also had situations in which the monk didn't want an assassin in the party, because "...assassins are usually really bad news" or something along that line. We invited the assassin anyway, and it turned out the monk couldn't keep up and the assassin was pretty brilliant.

On the other hand, the monk now has the wonderful excuse that is HB. It's a weak bar, and relies very much on your partner being a decent monk - but didn't you receive the memo? You're not a monk if you don't HB.

Frankly, I doubt independent thought was ever there in the first place, because people want the best builds possible and will use it to help them along. But at least before ursan there was actually thought.